Gutted by the former administration, the CIA finds it very difficult to know what’s going in trouble spots. Brad Johnson traces the origin to Deep State corruption. Trump’s lack of experience, and what can/should be done to correct this dangerous condition.
https://youtu.be/QNG1lF8XNFc
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[Music]
00:14
do
00:22
welcome to the vernicio novak report
00:24
from new york this is frank felicio
00:27
and from washington this is durian
00:30
about two weeks ago brad johnson
00:32
provided i think one of the most
00:34
fascinating interviews we’ve had on the
00:36
program
00:38
he is an incredible interview he is a
00:40
former cia
00:41
station chief and of course the
00:43
president or the head of the uh
00:44
president actually
00:46
of americans for intelligence reform
00:48
brad
00:49
welcome back to the program
00:53
hi frank great to speak with you once
00:55
again
00:56
you know i we’ve been talking before you
00:58
were on the air um
01:00
about how to interpret what’s going on
01:02
in china and of course since the obama
01:04
administration
01:05
basically gutted the uh the cia and
01:09
gutted a lot of our intelligence
01:11
it’s hard to get a real on the ground
01:13
read of what’s going on
01:14
in places like china john in particular
01:18
one of the mysteries to me is that if
01:21
you were in the chinese communist
01:23
party and you wanted to project an
01:26
image of uh if it’s safe for taiwan to
01:29
come into the fold
01:31
wouldn’t you have treated hong kong with
01:33
kid gloves
01:34
it seems the most foolish political move
01:38
in history to have treated hong kong as
01:41
roughly as the chinese communist party
01:42
has done
01:48
yes uh well you know
01:51
communists are not famed for being
01:54
delicate in their handling of people
01:56
they consider their subjects
01:58
and i think that kind of sums it up
02:02
hong kong is theirs and by god they’re
02:04
going to make sure that everybody knows
02:06
it
02:06
and taiwan is theirs and they’re going
02:09
to make
02:10
they’re going to make sure that
02:11
everybody’s aware of that at the first
02:13
possible opportunity
02:14
they’ve been closing in on hong kong for
02:16
a very long time and there was no doubt
02:19
uh at where the end result was was
02:22
was going to rest and uh if the same
02:26
thing is intended for taiwan taiwan of
02:28
course is
02:29
much different situation since it’s
02:32
basically a country an independent
02:34
country
02:35
and capable of defending itself and the
02:37
united states
02:38
uh you know probably well certainly
02:40
under trump would also help defend
02:43
uh taiwan so they’re uh under trump
02:46
about
02:47
what a year ago maybe a year and a half
02:48
ago they have some aging
02:51
fighter aircraft they uh i think they
02:53
were there f-18s
02:55
i believe is what it was now of course
02:57
we have the f-35s
02:58
we have not sold the latest greatest
03:01
aircraft to taiwan
03:03
although we have been selling them to
03:04
japan and that is also
03:07
a power in the region that china
03:11
uh respects to some degree and uh but we
03:13
have sold a lot of upgraded equipment to
03:16
bring the
03:16
fighter aircraft that the taiwanese have
03:19
up to a much higher standard of
03:21
performance so there has been uh some
03:24
weapons
03:25
uh support taking place with taiwan
03:27
lately but
03:28
there’s no question that they’re on the
03:30
menu and
03:32
china doesn’t care about enticing taiwan
03:34
back in
03:35
they’re just going to take taiwan by
03:37
hook or by cooker by force no matter
03:39
what it takes
03:40
that’s what they’re going to do and
03:42
they’ve shown no remorse no second
03:44
thoughts
03:44
no hesitation at any point at any time
03:47
and taking back territory they view as
03:49
their own and there’s just no question
03:51
that this is uh
03:53
this is how they view the world right
03:54
now it’s theirs for the picking
03:56
and i would suggest to you that right
03:58
now one of the reasons that they
04:00
feel so free to do these things is
04:03
because of the democrats the united
04:05
states of america
04:06
because they’re creating so much havoc
04:08
and so much
04:09
problem that the united states has its
04:12
attention turned inward
04:14
and is not able to pay enough attention
04:16
to these things going on outside
04:18
it seems to me that if we look at the
04:20
history of modern china
04:22
since the u.s normalized relations with
04:25
the country
04:26
we’ve seen the chinese plotting long
04:28
term
04:29
way ahead of us if you want to call it a
04:31
chess game and what moves where we’re
04:33
literally playing if you want to call it
04:35
two different games
04:37
i think the um we’re playing with one
04:39
hand tied behind our back and our eyes
04:41
closed half the time
04:43
but it seems to me that unless we push
04:45
back
04:46
in some way whether it’s china extending
04:49
their nine dash line as they call it
04:51
into the south china sea
04:53
taking over small islands or creating
04:55
them or
04:56
arming with whether it’s missile
04:59
technologies creating airports that are
05:01
handling military aircraft
05:03
all of this on these little islands in
05:05
the south china
05:09
else sea stand up to the chinese at this
05:12
point
05:16
yes i i agree with that analysis i think
05:18
it’s correct we certainly need to show a
05:20
stronger hand against the chinese so
05:21
they will not stop
05:23
uh now legally in the uh international
05:26
court
05:26
the philippines just won a case against
05:29
this
05:29
chinese aggression in the region of the
05:32
south pacific where they’re
05:33
trying to move in and of course that’s
05:35
the philippines you know they’re right
05:37
in the middle of all of that so they’re
05:39
looking at this with great trepidations
05:42
so it it it is the problem we do have to
05:45
take a strong stand against
05:47
china president trump i believe and
05:49
certainly
05:50
all indications are the way he’s been
05:52
negotiating over business
05:54
uh deals and trade with china is that he
05:57
wants to take a very tough stance
05:59
and i i there’s kind of two issues that
06:02
are making it tough for him one are the
06:04
internal politics we already mentioned
06:07
and two is just
06:08
make sure the beast in the united states
06:09
as you very correctly pointed out
06:12
the chinese communist party are the same
06:14
is the same communist party of chairman
06:16
mao
06:17
the government has not changed in that
06:19
period the head of the government has
06:21
but those plans and many of those things
06:24
continue
06:25
all through this period of time so
06:26
there’s great consistency in their
06:29
effort and in their goals
06:31
where we here in the united states we’re
06:33
lucky to get eight years in a row
06:36
of one policy because uh
06:39
the president changes control of the
06:41
house changes control the senate changes
06:44
and those policies therefore swing
06:46
widely back and forth
06:48
so this it’s there’s a host of problems
06:50
with all of this that we’re really
06:52
we’re not getting fixed the way that we
06:54
need to because we should be acting much
06:56
stronger against china
06:58
yesterday not only today but yesterday
07:00
and we’re just not able to get it done
07:02
with covet and all of these problems
07:05
how concerned are you brad that china
07:08
will perhaps take over some of these
07:10
small rocks that are
07:11
barely islands uh you know at low tide
07:15
and continue with very small moves
07:18
toward taiwan
07:19
not enough to cause the united states to
07:21
move aircraft carriers in permanently or
07:24
take action
07:25
but slow incremental steps where you
07:27
know like
07:28
they say about put a frog and slowly
07:31
heating water and it won’t jump out
07:33
do we at some point make a decision or
07:36
do you think
07:37
to act or do you think we’ll just sort
07:39
of go along with it because each step
07:41
that china takes is incremental
07:45
well i think there’s there’s little
07:46
doubt that they’re employing
07:48
that strategy and incrementalism if you
07:51
will
07:52
and they speed it up and slow down that
07:54
process depending on the resistance they
07:56
need
07:57
but their goal is absolutely clear and
07:59
they’ve stated very clearly
08:00
they fully reserve the right to use
08:03
direct military intervention
08:05
to take back as they view it taiwan so
08:08
there’s just
08:09
there’s no question of their goals and
08:10
those goals i think you could say the
08:12
same thing they’re basically
08:14
imperialist in nature they’re 10 and
08:16
fully intending
08:17
to expand the empire of china into areas
08:21
that
08:21
that were not traditionally theirs and
08:23
the south pacific
08:24
taiwan of course was traditionally part
08:26
of china but the south pacific and other
08:28
areas that have traditionally been
08:29
separate
08:30
they fully intend to take so island
08:32
hopping and creating these islands is
08:34
clearly what they’re up to they say that
08:37
they say that they view the south china
08:38
sea as as
08:40
theirs and i i think what’s what’s
08:43
happening is
08:44
is fairly straightforward they view it
08:46
as the modern day silk road if you will
08:49
and the silk road for hundreds of years
08:51
was a
08:52
dominant economic force in the world
08:55
and that south china sea uh has billions
08:58
and billions of dollars of trade that go
09:00
through there
09:01
and to control all of that to be able to
09:03
stop it at will
09:05
or promote it at will gives great
09:07
economic clout to china
09:09
and there’s just zero question that
09:11
that’s what they’re up to
09:12
and as as you correctly pointed out that
09:15
incrementalism
09:16
is going to speed up or slow down to
09:18
meet the circumstances
09:19
and they’re acting very aggressively
09:21
across the board for example
09:23
using uh bitcoin trying to create a
09:26
separate uh economic market apart from
09:29
the banking system
09:31
that’s essentially controlled by the
09:32
united states are greatly influenced
09:34
by the united states of america and
09:36
based on the dollar
09:37
so they’re trying to create a separate
09:40
secondary
09:41
world banking system and china is the
09:44
largest producer of bitcoin in the world
09:47
and they have this enormous facility
09:49
that’s that’s multiple floors floor to
09:51
ceiling
09:51
computational power right next door to a
09:54
power plant and those are the two things
09:56
required to make bitcoin
09:58
you got to have the computational power
09:59
and you got to have the electricity to
10:01
power those machines
10:02
so china is the largest producer and
10:04
they are hard after
10:06
all of these things across the board and
10:07
we could go on and on about
10:09
what they’re doing militarily in the
10:11
south china sea what they’re doing
10:12
economically
10:13
uh what they’re doing through their
10:14
trade policy what they’re doing in their
10:17
policies towards third world countries
10:19
coming in and basically predatory
10:21
lending to these countries taking
10:23
control of them
10:24
uh their intelligence policies and
10:26
activities i mean
10:27
they’re essentially on a war footing
10:30
doing
10:30
everything they can do without actually
10:33
pulling the trigger the first time
10:35
you know going back to the cold war
10:37
period um there was a move on the part
10:40
of
10:41
what the communists used to call useful
10:43
idiots
10:45
have a nuclear freeze that only applied
10:48
to the west it didn’t seem to apply to
10:50
the soviets at all at least as the
10:51
proponents were pushing it
10:53
in some ways what occurred during the
10:55
obama administration not just
10:57
in hard weaponry but also in human
11:00
intelligence
11:01
was a kind of unilateral freeze in the
11:04
united states on
11:05
possibly the most important front line
11:07
of our defense which is human
11:09
intelligence
11:10
if we see a democratic victory in
11:13
november
11:14
will we see a return to the obama
11:16
policies of
11:17
decimating our human intelligence
11:20
services
11:23
well um i would make a couple of
11:25
distinctions in there
11:26
most assuredly we will see a return to
11:29
the same obama policies which would
11:31
which are what ushered in essentially
11:34
the dismantling
11:35
of our human capability that was all
11:37
done under
11:38
former cia director john brennan or at
11:40
least that process was completed
11:42
under former director john brennan but
11:44
what we have not seen
11:46
is that get turned around even in the
11:48
meantime now
11:49
president trump has done a lot of great
11:51
work on trade particularly with china
11:53
and
11:54
in a lot of other areas and bringing
11:55
back the economy
11:57
uh you know certainly not his fault that
11:58
kovit has created current problems but
12:01
he’s done a great job in bringing back
12:03
the economy one of the things he has not
12:05
yet done which i
12:06
i do hope and and americans for
12:08
intelligence reform is
12:10
attempting to influence him in that
12:11
direction is that these policies
12:14
institut
12:14
that were implemented by john brennan
12:17
and which are continued to this day
12:20
are turned around and that we recreate
12:22
we reinstitute reconstitute
12:25
that body within the cia that does human
12:28
it does espionage the
12:30
spy game and that is the operational
12:33
cadre
12:34
and one of the problems i often talk
12:35
about is it
12:37
it takes a very long time to create
12:40
a fully capable operations
12:43
officer that can be a chief of station
12:45
overseas and run things
12:47
and train and bring up the junior people
12:49
in the process
12:51
those those people in that operational
12:54
cadre no longer exist
12:55
they’re gone they’re they’re i’m the
12:58
last generation
12:59
as my people my age group die out
13:02
those lessons learned those capabilities
13:05
to do
13:06
these things die with us and they will
13:09
then have to be all relearned
13:10
so that operational cadre needs to be
13:12
reinstated
13:14
and create that pipeline of the say 20
13:17
years of experience
13:20
only doing operations only doing
13:22
espionage
13:23
so that we develop that level of
13:24
expertise that we can once again
13:26
be a player on the world stage something
13:28
that at this point we are not
13:30
in the old days we by ourselves were
13:32
were enough to take on the world
13:34
although we had
13:35
allies as i’ve mentioned before we were
13:37
enough by ourselves to do a hell of a
13:39
job
13:39
and that now has gone to the point where
13:41
we simply cannot we’re not at the point
13:43
now
13:44
where we can operate effectively without
13:46
a bar without our allies and
13:48
put that in terms that everyone will
13:50
understand of like a navy
13:52
or an air force do you want to put the
13:54
united states of america in a position
13:56
where our navy or our air force cannot
13:59
operate effectively
14:01
without the support of our allies no
14:04
we want our air force to be standalone
14:06
and do a good job and make us safe
14:08
same for the navy same from the army but
14:10
not the same for the cia
14:12
is it the distinction between the
14:16
rank and file fbi agent the rank and
14:18
file cia
14:19
agent and senior management seems to be
14:22
huge
14:23
i know that that fight has been seen in
14:26
many quarters in many different ways
14:29
is it possible that many in the trump
14:31
administration look at someone like
14:32
john brennan look at someone like the
14:35
head of the fbi and say
14:37
my god you know we can’t trust these
14:38
folks at all we have to really shake
14:40
this thing from its roots and start over
14:46
i i i think anyone with a kind of
14:49
bureaucratic understanding of these
14:51
things and myself i guess i can
14:53
say in some ways i’m a swamp deal
14:55
dweller i had 25 years in the cia so
14:58
i mean i understand government and how
14:59
it works and how to make it do what you
15:01
want and those things
15:03
president trump does not come from that
15:05
background so
15:07
your question shows a deeper
15:09
understanding of government
15:10
and how it works that you need if you
15:12
want to change
15:14
the culture of the cia or the fbi
15:17
you need to come in and clean house and
15:19
kind of start over in some ways
15:22
not down at the junior levels
15:23
necessarily but you’re going to need to
15:25
come in and hand pick a few people out
15:27
of the mid-levels
15:28
who are the right sort bring them up and
15:30
then backfill behind them
15:31
the right type of people that are going
15:33
to lead us out into the future in those
15:34
organizations
15:36
now that has not taken place under the
15:38
trump
15:39
administration and i think it’s taken
15:42
president trump there’s always a
15:43
learning curve out of presidency united
15:45
states it’s one of the
15:46
things i always observed in intelligence
15:49
it takes a while
15:50
to figure that job out because there’s
15:52
no other job like it so
15:54
you know there’s always a learning curve
15:55
and i think in many ways it’s taken
15:57
president trump about this law
15:59
to figure all of these things out and
16:01
start to see that
16:03
how often senior people and other people
16:05
are working against him and his
16:07
administration
16:08
and in ways that are in many cases not
16:11
only immoral but also illegal
16:13
and i’m hoping that as this uh u.s
16:16
attorney general bars investigation
16:18
headed up by u.s attorney john durham
16:20
winds its way down which he’s reporting
16:22
is going to be out by the end of august
16:24
or so
16:25
uh that we’re going to see a number of
16:27
indictments and can start to set the
16:28
record straight
16:30
and create a a culture in the united
16:32
states of america
16:33
in feder federal government circles so
16:36
that everyone knows
16:37
at the senior level you’re not above the
16:39
law it’s not okay
16:41
to use government powers for your own
16:43
personal political benefit
16:45
and those people have to go to jail to
16:47
make that point or
16:49
uh we’re going to end up as a third
16:50
world country where politics are
16:52
backroom deals dirty deals and that’s
16:54
the way government works
16:56
i want to go to diary in a second but i
16:57
just want to hit on that last point
17:00
do you believe that the durham report
17:02
the durham prosecution when it
17:04
eventually occurs hopefully it occurs
17:06
we’ll have the courage to go where it’s
17:09
supposed to go
17:10
uh you know i’ve worked for elected
17:12
officials and i know that certain
17:13
policies
17:15
don’t happen spontaneously don’t happen
17:18
by a bunch of underlings deciding to do
17:20
it
17:20
and clearly the things that occurred in
17:22
the obama administration
17:24
such as using the irs to prosecute the
17:27
tea party
17:28
or using the department of justice to
17:29
harass people who disagreed with the
17:31
obama administration on climate control
17:33
do not happen without the man in the
17:35
oval office giving his permission to do
17:37
so
17:38
do you feel that the durham crew will
17:42
have the courage to go where they have
17:44
to go
17:44
to really get justice
17:49
well um i would answer that with
17:53
a qualified yes uh i i
17:56
more or less think that they have the
17:58
courage to go where they need to go
18:00
um but i think it’s very clear
18:11
not the president
18:15
or vice president biden are in any way
18:18
under investigation and i don’t think
18:20
they’re going to be looked at
18:21
i think that that’s deeply political
18:24
uh but i think the the motives are such
18:27
that they just don’t want to get into a
18:29
situation
18:30
where we’re prosecuting and trying to
18:32
put in jail a former president or vice
18:33
president
18:34
now from that point down now by the way
18:36
i’m not saying that i think that’s good
18:38
or the right decision
18:39
what i’m saying is i believe that that’s
18:41
the decision that has been made
18:43
i would maybe argue against it but there
18:45
are two sides to that argument
18:48
now the second part of that answer is
18:50
from there
18:51
down i believe it looks me like
18:55
there will be indictments against former
18:58
fbi director james comey
18:59
former director of national intelligence
19:01
james clapper
19:02
former sdi director john brennan
19:06
and a host of those other players the
19:08
news that we all know
19:09
the information that’s out there that
19:11
i’m seeing is that we have a list of
19:13
about
19:14
nine people that are going to be charged
19:15
with a handful of crimes
19:18
per person and what’s being said
19:21
is the most serious crime that will be
19:23
charged
19:24
is that of treason against john brennan
19:26
former ci director john brennan
19:28
i don’t know if that’s true but that’s
19:31
one of the things i’ve been told
19:33
on two separate occasions so
19:36
it is certainly one of the things within
19:38
the realms of possibility
19:40
pretty much everybody else involved the
19:42
peter strzok
19:43
james comey all these guys at the doj
19:46
and fbi people
19:47
uh it looks like overthrowing the
19:49
government uh is going to be the charge
19:51
for those people the most serious charge
19:53
now uh certainly um treason is is uh as
19:56
everyone knows i think that the federal
19:58
death penalty has been reinstated and
20:00
treason is the death penalty
20:02
type crime uh attempting to overthrow
20:04
the government i’m not sure if that is
20:06
or not uh but it looks like to me that’s
20:09
that might be on the table for those
20:10
crimes as well
20:12
if that is certainly the case all of
20:14
these people involved
20:16
every one of them if they’re if they’re
20:18
faced with a conceivable death penalty
20:20
to charge
20:21
uh after they clean up their soiled
20:25
pants they’re going to sing and tell
20:27
everything that they know
20:28
they’re just not these are not the type
20:30
of people that are going to have the
20:32
fortitude to stand up against the threat
20:34
of that type so
20:35
we’ll see how all this unfolds but uh
20:38
the government has a lot of power a lot
20:40
of cards are in their hand
20:41
should they choose to go forward and i
20:43
believe i may be wrong
20:45
but i believe that u.s attorney general
20:47
barr
20:48
is very interested in making sure that
20:51
the
20:51
u.s constitution and the law of the land
20:54
reigns supreme
20:56
so i believe that he is going to enforce
20:58
these laws and i think it’s very clear
21:01
that many many laws were broken
21:04
so what those charges are if they come
21:07
out remains to be seen hopefully we’ll
21:08
know within a month
21:10
but at least that’s my view of it right
21:12
now if i were to predict i would say
21:15
indictments on are roughly nine people
21:17
and a number of charges per person
21:19
and some of them very serious dario
21:23
you know i just have a quick question
21:25
before we let you go today we’re going
21:27
to have to have you back on because we
21:29
just keep touching on so many
21:30
interesting things
21:32
what comes to mind to me though is
21:35
how do you clean up the ca because we
21:37
already vet
21:38
the individuals that are going to work
21:40
for the cia
21:41
so how do we clean the process to start
21:44
with
21:44
because obviously the people that were
21:46
vetting our
21:48
agency personnel let them through
21:53
yes i uh the the it’s an excellent
21:57
question
21:57
and observation here that the pipeline
22:00
this was really kind of
22:02
uh put into place during the president
22:05
clinton years
22:06
but what they did was they set this
22:09
whole thing up
22:10
the the controls in federal government
22:13
for who gets promoted are very strong
22:16
there’s very good guidelines on it to
22:18
protect
22:19
uh you know equality among race sex all
22:21
of those those
22:22
uh different attributes of people so the
22:25
controls over the promotion process
22:28
are very good those controls are
22:31
non-existent when it comes to the part
22:33
about who gets what job but in federal
22:37
government the way you get promoted
22:39
is by the jobs that you have so what
22:42
they do
22:42
is they’ve taken the liberals completely
22:45
took over during the clinton years
22:47
that pipeline to leadership and
22:50
if you want to get into leadership you
22:52
have to have certain jobs
22:54
and if you’re not a party loyalist of
22:56
theirs you will never get that job
22:59
so that’s how they’ve manipulated and
23:01
destroyed the system
23:03
and that’s why you see all of leadership
23:06
of any senior level of any kind be of
23:09
that ilk where they believe
23:11
it’s okay to manipulate us government
23:14
authorities and powers
23:16
for their own political personal corrupt
23:18
reasons
23:19
and so in order to fix that you’re going
23:22
to have to fix
23:23
a couple of things one of them is the
23:24
promotion system and
23:26
and by the promotion system i’m
23:28
referring to specifically how people get
23:30
jobs and you need to move that those
23:32
like eeo controls
23:34
over to who gets what job as well
23:37
so that you it’s not based on political
23:39
loyalties
23:40
it’s based on a merit system and that is
23:45
extraordinarily difficult to do i don’t
23:47
think it’s even possible
23:49
however that said because of the
23:51
leadership of who’s at
23:52
these agencies i would put it this way
23:55
it cannot be
23:56
done with who is there so unless uh
23:59
leadership
24:00
and by that i mean the administration
24:01
comes in and as
24:03
frank put it shake the tree and knock
24:05
everybody off the top of that
24:07
and bring in your own people and put
24:09
them in unless the process of that
24:11
nature
24:11
is implemented there’s simply no way to
24:13
do it it cannot be fixed with who’s
24:15
there
24:16
and everybody good is gone so you’re
24:18
going to have to start to replace them
24:19
and that requires a major major shake-up
24:22
there’s no political will to do that so
24:24
i don’t see a lot of hope
24:25
for uh for any of this stuff being taken
24:27
care of in the short term
24:29
the only thing that will help is by
24:31
putting these people like the comey’s
24:32
and vernon
24:33
if they’ve indeed broken the laws that
24:35
they’re suspected of broken
24:37
uh of having broke and the only way to
24:40
help the situation is by put all those
24:41
guys in jail
24:42
for the rest of their life and maybe a
24:44
death penalty if if warranted
24:46
brad johnson is president of the
24:47
americans for intelligence reform
24:49
our most fascinating interview we’ve got
24:51
to have you back real soon thanks so
24:53
much brad
24:54
frank i look forward to it thank you so
24:56
very much
25:00
daria you know i think brad really hit
25:03
the nail on the head
57:09
you
[/expander_maker]
