International espionage in France led to a short sentence for the French Chief of Station to Beijing. With access to any number of valuable secrets about Europe and the US, China wins big here. Brad Johnson, former CIA Chief of Station himself, warns us again about CCP aggressive strategy to gain control of the West by military, economic, and intelligence might. The President of Americans for Intelligence Reform describes the intrigue from his unique perspective.
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brad johnson july 13th 2020
00:03
uh china seems to be irritating all of
00:06
us in some way
00:07
at various levels um
00:11
please tell us about what happened in
00:13
france that’s quite interesting i think
00:14
a lot of people will find that
00:15
interesting
00:17
it is it’s a it’ll be a very short
00:18
update and this is something i talk
00:20
about quite often for anyone who follows
00:22
these interviews
00:23
uh but china is on this on the world
00:25
stage aggressively going after
00:28
everything they can get their hands on
00:29
in every way they can get their hands on
00:31
it militarily through intelligence
00:33
uh through using economic measures which
00:36
are predatory in nature and africa
00:38
worldwide
00:40
but now what happened here and one of
00:41
the things i often warn everybody about
00:43
is the intelligence measures that are
00:45
used by the
00:45
a very very very aggressive uh chinese
00:48
intelligence service
00:50
other multiple services and one of the
00:52
things that they did is they
00:54
uh in france two dgse officers which
00:58
that is the equivalent of the cia
01:00
in france were arrested and just
01:03
convicted
01:04
uh in the last couple of days to jail
01:07
terms
01:07
in france now one of those men had been
01:10
the chief of station in beijing of all
01:13
things and
01:14
and it pains me to see this and of
01:16
course uh i think most people know there
01:18
are
01:19
liaison relationships between france the
01:21
united states and canada
01:23
and so information is shared back and
01:25
forth we give them stuff they give us
01:27
stuff
01:28
i mean that’s how those relationships
01:29
work and the nato countries
01:31
all have varying degrees of relationship
01:35
intelligence sharing relationships
01:37
so this guy who is the chief of station
01:41
in beijing for the french which is their
01:44
the
01:44
chief of station is the is the boss of
01:47
their intelligence office there their
01:49
their cia equivalent office
01:52
and which is that’s a position i held
01:54
not in beijing but
01:55
as a former chief of station that was
01:57
that was the head of our office in
01:59
whatever country
02:00
and uh so that guy and one other now the
02:03
french are being a little coy on the
02:04
reporting they haven’t given all the
02:06
names there’s
02:07
henry and pierre are the two guys that
02:09
are arrested they’re both older
02:10
gentlemen
02:11
169’s one in his early 70s so they had
02:14
been around so the one guy
02:16
gets posted to
02:19
beijing as their chief of station starts
02:22
sleeping with the ambassadors
02:24
interpreter which let me say
02:26
everyone that works in the embassy the
02:28
u.s uh
02:29
embassy the french embassy the canadian
02:31
embassy all these embassies everybody
02:32
that works in those embassies
02:34
aren’t just innocent people off the
02:36
street that just happen to
02:38
uh you know be get those jobs that’s not
02:40
how it works everybody in those places
02:42
works for the intelligence agencies so
02:45
they’re all
02:46
spies against whatever country’s embassy
02:49
they’re in so
02:50
he starts sleeping with the ambassadors
02:53
the french ambassadors
02:55
uh translators so it’s the chinese girl
02:58
that he started sleeping with her
02:59
i don’t know the ages but i’m suspecting
03:01
she’s substantially younger
03:03
than this guy so you know dare i guess
03:07
you know something like in her 30s i
03:08
don’t know if her fact it hasn’t come
03:10
out and reporting
03:11
so a much older guy sleeping with this
03:13
much younger girl
03:14
and falls in love and he gets
03:18
caught doing all of this and so it gets
03:19
it’s basically cashier so he decides to
03:22
say okay fine
03:23
he moves to china marries this girl
03:26
that’s living with her
03:27
and uh gets caught bringing back money
03:30
so clearly the chinese have recruited
03:32
him out of all of this he’s making his
03:33
living by working for the chinese
03:35
travels back into some international
03:37
port where the
03:38
french can get their hands on and they
03:40
snap him up plus this other guy like i
03:42
say i don’t know
03:44
what the deal is between these two
03:46
people the two frenchmen but both were
03:48
former dgst
03:49
officers so i’m assuming that this chief
03:52
of station
03:53
brought in the other guy and they were
03:55
both reporting to the chinese
03:57
and who knows he probably had some
03:58
little honey pot chinese girl that was
04:00
sleeping with him too don’t know but
04:02
you know those are the types of things i
04:04
would expect out of a case like this so
04:06
this guy who had been there former chief
04:08
of station would have had
04:10
access to almost everything
04:14
and over a long period of history that
04:17
had happened that that the french
04:18
intelligence service had been up to in
04:20
china
04:21
so he would have given them the kitchen
04:23
sink and everything else
04:24
that he could give them and and also
04:27
historical so he would have also had
04:30
information because what he would have
04:32
seen
04:32
would have been when it came from the
04:34
other liaison services like the united
04:36
states for example any information
04:38
that was related to china that had been
04:40
shared with france
04:41
he would have also seen so he had a a
04:44
a large amount of information coming
04:46
from other countries
04:48
and other countries that had been
04:50
involved are also
04:51
reporting a lot on china so that
04:54
reporting is very valuable because
04:56
if if he sees a report that came out of
04:59
australia or the united states or
05:01
wherever it doesn’t matter
05:03
based on that report the chinese can
05:05
kind of reverse
05:06
engineer and see where the source of the
05:09
information is even if they don’t have
05:10
the name
05:11
which they would not have had the name
05:13
of the source but even just based on the
05:15
information they could look back and say
05:17
well these guys over here have access to
05:20
that information so we know we have a
05:21
spy in that area
05:23
and then they can really track them down
05:24
and probably identify who they are
05:26
so i wouldn’t be surprised to see people
05:28
have been caught and executed as a
05:30
result of this
05:31
by the chinese service based on the
05:34
information this guy would have given
05:35
him
05:35
and of course the french the way they
05:37
are i mean they gave these guys
05:38
basically slaps on the wrist but
05:40
let me say proving espionage cases
05:44
is very difficult and if they don’t
05:48
confess
05:48
everything it’s very hard to get it all
05:51
very hard to prove it
05:53
and there was a case i won’t go into the
05:55
boring details of it but there was a
05:56
case of a
05:58
a former united states dcm it’s a deputy
06:01
chief of mission that’s the
06:02
state department number two after the
06:04
ambassador when the ambassador’s gone
06:06
the dcm is the charger who is acting
06:10
instead of the
06:11
uh in the stead of the ambassador so we
06:13
had a dcm
06:15
a state department high-level officer
06:19
photographed and what he did is he shows
06:23
up with a briefcase and does the classic
06:25
you know james bond movie sort of thing
06:27
a kgb guy shows up he shows up
06:29
they both set down briefcases that are
06:32
exactly the same
06:33
and when they get up and walk away they
06:34
take the other’s briefcase now
06:36
the problem this is a perfect example of
06:38
this in in a case like that
06:40
the kgb guy has walked off with the
06:43
breeze case so you don’t know what’s in
06:44
it
06:45
so you don’t know what he gave to him
06:47
you know he’s a spy you know he’s no
06:49
good he’s working for the bad guys
06:51
but you don’t know what he gave him and
06:53
you have to have what was in that case
06:55
to prove it to convict him of the full
06:58
espionage thing
06:59
so this is one of those that guy uh he
07:01
uh he basically got off he was fired of
07:04
course
07:04
lost his pension but you know he just
07:07
left and was working in some job and
07:11
in the washington greater washington dc
07:13
area because they couldn’t convict him
07:14
of anything even though he was
07:16
videotaping exchanging a briefcase with
07:18
the kgb
07:19
you need more than that for the level of
07:21
proof so it was something
07:22
similar to that we don’t know what this
07:25
these frenchmen were giving to the
07:27
chinese
07:28
so that’s why they got like i think a
07:29
two year and a four year sentence or
07:30
something like that however
07:32
that said i mean they’re both around 70.
07:34
so that that’s that’s a long time when
07:36
you’re 70 years old i suspect
07:38
but there should live to get out and who
07:40
knows but
07:41
a very interesting case and again
07:43
another indication
07:44
of just how dangerous the chinese
07:47
are and it needs to sink through to
07:49
everyone that the
07:51
most dangerous long-term strategic
07:53
threat
07:54
to the united states of america and the
07:56
west is
07:57
china and this is just one more example
08:00
of that
08:02
well it sounds like it was simpler
08:03
during the cold war thank you very much
08:10
brett
08:25
[Music]
08:35
you
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